On a bright winter morning in the Magic City, a man is seen approaching the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (BCRI). He is walking with a purpose. Bishop Calvin Woods, pastor of Shiloh Baptist Church in the Norwood community and recently retired president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) Birmingham Chapter, is headed south along Sixth Avenue North to the BCRI for an interview – but not just any interview.

Woods is scheduled to meet with Rock City Church Pastor Mike McClure Jr., who is Woods’ grandson. McClure arrives at the BCRI not long after Woods. For the next 60 minutes, McClure, 38, who represents a new generation of pastors, interviews Woods, 88, who remains one of the city’s leading voices for equality and one of the few area pastors to have worked and traveled with civil rights icon the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

In honor of King’s birthday (observed Jan. 17), The Birmingham Times asked McClure to talk with Woods about his memories of King and the SCLC – an organization that dates back to 1957, when it was formed by a group of Black pastors, including civil rights giants the Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth and King, who was its first president.

Here are excerpts of that conversation, edited for length and clarity.

McClure: I am excited to be interviewing one of my personal heroes, one of my homiletic heroes, one of my historic heroes and, unapologetically, my grandfather, Bishop Calvin Woods. How are you doing today, sir?

Woods: Oh, I’m doing fine. You’re more than just Mike. I didn’t expect you to be this much. When you were a little baby, a boy growing up, and (I remember) how y’all would get a good ride on my shoulder. God has used you in such a way, now I’m riding on your shoulder. So many times, I consult, talk with you and the reason I do that is because I know God’s called you and anointed you. Otherwise, I wouldn’t consult with you about a lot of things. … And I hope you never forget that you were my very first vice president of SCLC (Birmingham chapter). God told me to do that and, of course, I thank God for what he did. But he expanded you and your work so much until your work got bigger than the SCLC.

This is that way God did it. When I became president (of the chapter), the Spirit had me reach out to you. So I know you are a man of God. And of course, I think that helped me in making many decisions that I’ve made. See how God has been working through the years raising people up. He raised me up. And when there was a time when something was holding me back from taking certain steps, but when God tell you something and propel you forward with it, he has something else he’s going to.

McClure: So many times we’re focused on the work of the man. I know personally, you’ve spearheaded marches, you’ve been jailed, fought against injustice for years, but to me, when it comes to purpose and pain, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. A lot of people want the purpose; a lot of people don’t want the pain. So, the question I would like to ask is, looking back over your life, out of all the things you’ve accomplished that helped other people, what did it cost you?

Woods: It gave me an opportunity to learn more about God. He promised me when I was a young man that he would be with me always … and I heard that. I remember that. So as a result of me being obedient and going through the pain, I learned more about Him. He won’t forsake you. That doesn’t mean you won’t go through pain, but just having that assurance of His Word that ‘I’m with you always’. So, I feel that what I was doing, I was doing it for God, and to the glory of God. It was rough. So, I’m not going to tell no lie and say I was never frightened sometimes. Yes. Sometimes I was frightened. But if I had an option from God to lead the people in a certain direction to do a certain thing, I did it anyhow, because God said do it. That’s the only reason I could work in the cause, because it is the work of God. And I feel my salvation is wrapped up in my obedience to God. It is an honor for God to choose you to do anything. He doesn’t have to choose you. You are unworthy. And the work that you have, God makes you worthy to do. A lot of things I didn’t know, but I just trusted Him.

McClure: What are your recollections of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., whether personal interaction or otherwise, what are some of your fondest memories of Dr. King?

Woods: His humanness. Dr. King’s humanness. He didn’t want us to forget that he was a human being. He was very humble, very humble. He and I got so close because I was bull-headed. A lot of them thought it was hurting me. When we would get in meetings, I didn’t always agree with everybody on the outside. But he was paying attention to that. … They told him up at the City Hall don’t bring me back. Said, ‘don’t bring that Calvin Woods.’ They tried to kick me off the negotiating committee (between prominent Black residents and the city’s business leadership to desegregate Birmingham). (The Birmingham Times founder) Jesse Lewis, a young man, said, ‘if Calvin Woods ain’t gonna be on it, it ain’t gonna be no damn meeting.’ Dr. King had respect for me standing up.

McClure: What do you think Dr. King would say about the world today?

Woods: Well, I think he’d be very disappointed, to a certain extent. Another extent, he would be proud because of where we are because of the courageous work that he did. I remember, when there was a time, we wouldn’t have been able to see Black reporters and news. All of them were white. That was just a tradition of the time. Dr. King would be proud to see what has taken place and transpired. We are at a point now, you on your level, God put you there. You’re a pastor, you sing, you’re an administrator – everybody don’t have that many gifts. God give people gifts according to their ability, Dr. King’s work. … We’ve come a long ways in this city, long ways in this nation, but we still got a long way to go … but the thing about coming a long ways, you have to be just as vigilant and tough to maintain what you have achieved because (there’s) always a spirit trying to figure out how to divide. … That’s our biggest trouble. We’ve come a long way, but we got to keep on being vigilant – eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. You can’t think you got it, ‘We got it now’. … You got to keep looking up to the hills from whence cometh your help. Dr. King was a spiritual leader, a Christian leader. He believed in prayer before we went out on anything. He’s a man (who) believed in love and nonviolence. God is love. Some things you don’t ever get rid of. Some things is all right to let go. But don’t let God go, the principles, and that’s why Dr. King’s organization has lasted as long as it has lasted.

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McClure: What did your role as the president of the Birmingham Chapter of the SCLC mean to you?

Woods: Well, I wasn’t trying to be the president or anything. It was just the work of God. God anoints people with different things. You heard that song, ‘I wonder if the light from the lighthouse will shine on me.’ God, God will put it on you. I wasn’t trying to get up there, but everywhere I went they would call on me to do something. A lot of people didn’t know SCLC had a special paper. It was called the Southern Courier. I was over that in Birmingham. My job was to distribute information. … What a lot of people don’t know, SCLC had a program back then called The Vision. That was the precursor, the forerunner for tutoring in the public school. We had a tutoring program. I was over that, on Saturday going in different churches.

McClure: How important is it for these historic organizations like the SCLC, the NAACP, the Urban League … to get the next generation of young people to join, because we’re seeing now a lot of young people just aren’t joining the organizations that fought for them to get the liberties they take advantage of.

Woods: We’ve got to continue to invest in young people and have their interest at heart. That’s very important. … There’s a passage of scripture says ‘A child should lead them,’ so you cannot leave young folk out. You’re going to do the work of God, but you have committed a terrible sin if you leave them by themselves. Young folk, you can’t fool them too easily. They can pick up on stuff and that’s the way God planned it, ’cause there will be a time when they’re gonna be old folks. We’re not going anywhere if we leave our young folks behind. They’ll tell you what they mean; you don’t have to worry about that.

McClure: Looking back over your life, is there anything you haven’t accomplished that you wish you would have accomplished?

Woods: I’m working on it right now. In 1976, the Lord spoke to me about being a praying intercessor. … I did what I could in that effort, intercede with people when they knew it, when they didn’t, try to help groups of anybody … but I know what God told me, an intercessory minister – that is standing in a gap for somebody else, being concerned about him. That is one thing that has been on my mind through my retirement of SCLC. The Lord called me an intercessor; I’ve got to do that. I’m not sitting down for my concern and work for the Lord.

McClure: What do you think about the future of Birmingham?

Woods: Well, I’m proud of the future of Birmingham because I know how Birmingham used to be, and we’ve come a mighty long ways in the city of Birmingham, so I’m very proud. That doesn’t mean that I will stop crying out against injustice, the things that are not right. I’m not pleased with everything I see. I doubt the Lord is pleased about everything He sees about me. Birmingham is a place that I’m proud of. I’m very proud to be from Birmingham, Alabama. God chose this place. … Sometime you couldn’t sit down in places and eat, couldn’t even go to good restaurants, good toilets. … They put you in jail if you go around driving a truck in certain places.

McClure: When all is said and done … finish this sentence … Bishop Calvin Woods was …

Woods: A servant of God, who loved God and loved people. Anything else doesn’t matter.”

This story originally appeared in The Birmingham Times.